Hello, Betrayal listeners! Episode 8 dropped last Friday (plus Episode 9, early and ad-free, exclusively on iHeartTrueCrime+). If you haven’t already tuned in, you can listen on Apple Podcasts, the iHeartApp, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Or listen right here, on Beyond Betrayal.
In Episode 8: SOLACE, Karoline sits down with licensed marriage and family therapist, Kristin Snowden, who specializes in betrayal trauma and infidelity. In this week’s Behind Betrayal conversation, I’m joined by producer Carrie Hartman to talk about how we found Kristen and why we connected her with Karoline. We also discuss how working through betrayal trauma looks different from regular therapy, and how connecting with others who’ve experienced betrayal in a group setting can be instrumental in your healing journey. You can find the transcript below.
If you have a story you’d like to share with us, email us at betrayalpod@gmail.com. And if you’re a paid Substack subscriber, join us in the chat!
Andrea Gunning: I am here today with my producer Carrie Hartman, and we are here today to discuss, um, Episode 408. And in 408, we really just live in Karoline's healing journey. And this is one of my favorite formats of the episode for the, for the series. It's, you know, Karoline just sitting with a therapist, a, a life coach.
Carrie Hartman: Yeah.
Andrea Gunning: And this is something we've done in past seasons. Do you wanna tell me how you came across Kristen Snowden? Usually it's, it's my pursuit to find the, you know, the person that works with our subjects. But you found Kristen this season. Tell me a little bit about that pursuit and why she interested you.
Carrie Hartman: You know, we always try to have some sort of therapeutic piece, largely to support the person we're working with, who's spilling their guts and their life out to us. And-
Andrea Gunning: Yeah, it's an intensive experience working on the show.
Carrie Hartman: Completely. So it's a way to have another person that's not us, that's not producers. Um, because like, we're not mental health experts.
Andrea Gunning: Yeah.
Carrie Hartman: Although I think you're pretty close.
Andrea Gunning: Not licensed.
Carrie Hartman: Right, not licensed, but so, you know, a lot of times we'll go look at TED Talks or well-developed YouTube channels where they're talking about betrayal or infidelity or addiction. And we, we looked at several, and there was something about Kristen and how direct she is, direct but compassionate, that seemed to be a good fit for Karoline. And it's, it's all chemistry, right? I mean, when you go to look for somebody to be your own coach or therapist, you don't know till you're sitting in the room whether this is somebody you're gonna connect with. So it's a little bit risky. It's, it's almost like...I, I don't know if you've ever felt like this, but I felt like I was fixing people up on like a blind date, you know?
Andrea Gunning: Mm-hmm.
Carrie Hartman: In a way.
Andrea Gunning: Yeah.
Carrie Hartman: I think you're going to connect with this person, I think you're gonna like each other, but you don't know.
Andrea Gunning: Right.
Carrie Hartman: And the other thing is, Kristen has so many resources that are all out there. She connects to dozens of organizations. She really wants to help betrayed partners.
Andrea Gunning: Yeah. And one of the things that really impressed me about Kristen when we were first talking to her about getting, you know, potentially working together for the series, is she's no bullshit. She's like, really, she's who she is. She makes no apologies. She's really straightforward. And it reminded me a lot of Karoline, so in terms of the chemistry you were talking about, like, it made a lot of sense.
Carrie Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Andrea Gunning: How do you feel like working through betrayal trauma with someone that specializes in it is different than regular therapy?
Carrie Hartman: Betrayal trauma sort of mimics the same symptoms and the physiological response of PTSD.
Andrea Gunning: Yeah.
Carrie Hartman: Your whole body is involved in it, and there are wonderful therapists, and Karoline had a wonderful therapist in crisis to help her. But when it comes to betrayal trauma, you know, there's all these triggers and reverberations that a betrayal trauma therapist who's trained and understands how the brain adjusts in trying to seek safety will address that may not happen in a, in a regular therapy session. So there's a big distinction and the toolbox can be very different.
Andrea Gunning: One of the things that we were talking to Karoline about last night, and this is just what I perceived bearing witness to a lot of this work and especially the work that Karoline has done with Kristen, is that working with a betrayal trauma therapist, I think it allows for the people that are doing the work to realize this isn't a 'them' problem.
So I think when you're passing those landmarks and you're shutting down and you're having a physical response, a lot of us just say, oh, wow, like, I'm not coping well. Like, I don't have the coping mechanisms. Why am I beating myself up? Why can't I just drive past this place and not let it affect me? Well, when you're working with someone that specializes in this, you realize that betrayal trauma has a tremendous impact biologically, neurologically. Physically.
Carrie Hartman: Mm-hmm. Right.
Andrea Gunning: And so it allows people to realize, oh, this is something that's happening to me. You know, it's not a symptom of you not being strong enough or having the coping mechanisms to deal with.
Carrie Hartman: Right.
Andrea Gunning: That allows for people to actually make meaningful change in their healing journey because they're not so self-critical.
Carrie Hartman: Yes.
Andrea Gunning: And I've been there like, why can't I just get over it? Like, what is wrong with me? Am I not, am I weak? Am I not strong enough? No, like that's not the case, like, you went through something really, really intense.
Carrie Hartman: Yeah.
Andrea Gunning: And so that's what I perceive to be like, a fundamental difference. I'm interested to hear about what new sides of Karoline you got to see in her conversations with Kristen, and how did Kristen's presence allow her to open up and feel safe in her community?
Carrie Hartman: I felt really proud of Karoline because we kind of nudged her in, in this direction. It wasn't a comfortable thing to do.
Andrea Gunning: I know.
Carrie Hartman: But she did it.
Andrea Gunning: She did.
Carrie Hartman: And immediately, she saw the value of it. And one of the things that I think has really made a huge difference for Karoline is that Kristen, and I'm sure other, um, coaches and therapists do this as well, runs groups for women who have all experienced this type of betrayal trauma.
Andrea Gunning: Yeah.
Carrie Hartman: And this group of women that Karoline was, I guess it's a virtual, it's a virtual group obviously, but these were women that she would be friends with. These are women who are accomplished, wonderful, smart, interesting. And one of the things I think that she really got out of all of this besides 'I'm not alone,' is 'I'm not a codependent person. This isn't an attachment style issue. This is just something that happened,' and seeing all of these people who she respects and identifies with, who have gone through something similar, has been very healing.
Andrea Gunning: Yeah, when you get to sit down and see the diversity of people's backgrounds and where they come from and what they do and what they bring to the table, you realize that betrayal doesn't come in one specific shape and form. It affects a lot of different people. And let me just shift gears, I think it's easy to look inward and say, I could have done this, I could have done that.
Carrie Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Andrea Gunning: I should have been better here. And you just realize that that's really just a coping mechanism because you feel like you're out of control. Like, everything is so out of control, if I can find the places where I could have been in control or change, maybe this won't happen again. And it's a survival thing.
Carrie Hartman: Sure.
Andrea Gunning: But when you realize that this is not about anything that you've done and that there are different women around me that are surrounded in different circumstances that have done different things, but it still happened.
Carrie Hartman: Right.
Andrea Gunning: And you realize this is all because of somebody else. Somebody else did this to you. There's a lot of power in that.
Carrie Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Andrea Gunning: There's a lot of healing in that. I mean, that sense of safety is something that you really have to like, find and like, nurture again. But there's a lot of freedom in realizing, no, it wasn't because I didn't do something, it's because someone did this to me. And I think her being able to look around and see that there are women that did everything they could or decided to stay and had different perspectives, like she could kind of really put different things in perspective based on other people's lived experience that I think was really, really special.
The other thing that I think was really groundbreaking for her was hearing Kristen say, if you had a friend who's partner had a substance use disorder and was addicted to, let's say heroin and had a substance use disorder around opiates. You wouldn't say, well, are you not using with them enough?
Carrie Hartman: Right. Like you didn't give 'em enough sex.
Andrea Gunning: Right.
Carrie Hartman: Like you didn't give 'em enough drug time. Right.
Andrea Gunning: Right. So people's approach to individuals who have, like, are dealing with substance use disorder, they're approached very differently. They're supported very differently in their community.
Carrie Hartman: They are.
Andrea Gunning: And I think for Karoline, that was like an aha moment for her, and I love that she got that, and I love that Kristen provided it. And you can hear it in this episode. It, it's pretty, it's pretty powerful.
Carrie Hartman: So this was very interesting to me, really interesting. When, you know, Karoline has felt a lack of support and empathy and outreach from the community that she knew, which is was largely a police officer's family community.
Andrea Gunning: Yeah.
Carrie Hartman: And one of the things that Kristen pointed out was, people make her kind of like the 'other.' So it's like, oh, well my sex life with my husband is fine, so this could never happen to me.
Andrea Gunning: Yeah.
Carrie Hartman: So it feels like you're being shunned. And, and to some extent you are being shunned and not supported. But people are so terrified at the thought that this could happen to them.
Andrea Gunning: Mm-hmm.
Carrie Hartman: Like that happens to them, because Karoline didn't do this or didn't do that. So it's a way of being like, well, we're not like that. It's a protective thing. Because it's so hard to imagine being in her shoes.
Andrea Gunning: Yeah.
Carrie Hartman: It's a way of distancing yourself, not from Karoline, but more from the idea that this could happen to you. And the truth is it could happen to anybody.
Andrea Gunning: Anybody. Yeah. That method of otherizing someone to diffuse that internal fear of it potentially, like, it's unconscious.
Carrie Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Andrea Gunning: They're not doing it.
Carrie Hartman: Right.
Andrea Gunning: But it does allow Karoline, when she interacts and hears someone do that, to say, that's not my shame to take on. That person doesn't even realize it, but deep down, they're afraid. And by them vocalizing that, it's a way for them to distance themselves from that fear or that potential reality that it could happen. And that's like, not my business, you know?
Carrie Hartman: Yeah.
Andrea Gunning: And it's easy in everyday conversations when you're, you and I are talking and you, you kind of open, you're very vulnerable with me, and I'm like, well, Carrie, you know, were you not sleeping with your husband enough? Because like, I do this.
Carrie Hartman: Right.
Andrea Gunning: And you can say, well, fuck you, Andrea. Like, that's really shaming. Like, that puts me in the middle of the dynamic that created this, which is not true. But for me, I don't even realize I'm doing it.
Carrie Hartman: Right.
Andrea Gunning: This is something that you see in true crime and people, how people react to true crime stories all the time.
Carrie Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Andrea Gunning: And it's just part of human nature. What are you excited for listeners to hear in the next episode? So we're kind of nearing the end. It's kind of wild to say that.
Carrie Hartman: Yeah, I know. Um, I, I can't even think about that 'cause it makes me sad. So the next episode, we're gonna get some surprising news about one of Karoline's close friends. I don't wanna give away much more than that, but, um, a little bit of a shock. And one of my favorite things about the next episode is we're gonna go through some listener feedback. And let me tell you, bitches are harsh, okay?
Andrea Gunning: We're used to it. It's fine.
Carrie Hartman: You know, um. So. But I, I really do appreciate the engagement.
Andrea Gunning: I appreciate it too. Even the hard ones too.
Carrie Hartman: Yeah.
Andrea Gunning: Because it pressure tests, like the choices, it pressure tests, like if people are outraged by certain things, you know, it just, it's good for me to like, sit and understand it. Like, I don't take any of the negative energy on. But it does like, help me pressure test how I feel about it.
Carrie Hartman: Yeah.
Andrea Gunning: And it gets value clarification for me. And a lot of the times my value clarification is not on their side. Like, it just makes me feel like, run through it a bit, which is fine.
Carrie Hartman: I, yeah, I mean, we appreciate hear- we really appreciate the comments and, and the emails and, and I'll just end with this one. We do actually end up hearing from somebody else who was a Colorado Springs police officer, with a very surprising message that's kind of tough.
Andrea Gunning: Yeah, it's a hard one.
Carrie Hartman: But it's a really exciting episode. A lot happens.
Take good care,
Andrea
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