Hey, Betrayal listeners! Episode 9 dropped yesterday (plus Episode 10, early and ad-free, exclusively on iHeartTrueCrime+). If you haven’t already tuned in, you can listen on Apple Podcasts, the iHeartApp, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Or listen right here, on Beyond Betrayal.
In Episode 9: THREE LITTLE BIRDS, Karoline finds that while she’s on a journey towards healing from betrayal trauma, someone else in her life is dealing with a betrayal of her own. In this week’s Behind Betrayal, I sit down with associate producer Kaitlin Goldin to talk about the importance of community when it comes to healing. We also discuss the prevalence of betrayal trauma and how damaging it is for someone to rewrite your narrative and reputation behind your back. You can find the transcript below.
If you have a story you’d like to share with us, email us at betrayalpod@gmail.com. And if you’re a paid Substack subscriber, join us in the chat!
Kaitlin Goldin: I'm really excited to get to talk to Dre as we end this season. Hi Dre, how are you?
Andrea Gunning: Hi, Kaitlin.
Kaitlin Goldin: So we're reaching Episode 409. What did we learn in this episode about Karoline's story?
Andrea Gunning: 409 is about relying on your community as you work on healing, and you look to your tribe and the people closest to you to get through hardships. It's also about the fact that, unfortunately, betrayal isn't rare. And we learn that even after Karoline's gone through everything that she's gone through and she has a close knit group of people that have witnessed what she's, you know, had to endure through this whole process, there's another person in her inner circle that is now confronted with betrayal.
And now Karoline has to kind of return the favor and support her friend through something that she's just dealing with herself and so, you know, three years in, Karoline knows what her friend's up against and you know, has been supported by her friend for three years, and now she realizes that she has to be the support system for her. And it's kind of this like, weird full circle moment in a way. And it's hard. I mean, it just, it's just like this indication that betrayal is never too far away.
Kaitlin Goldin: So let's stay on the topic of having friends around you.
Andrea Gunning: Yeah.
Kaitlin Goldin: You talked a little bit about Suzanne, who is Karoline's friend, who also experienced her own betrayal. From what you've seen over the course of many seasons working on this show, what kind of impact does having someone else in your life like Suzanne have in people's healing journey? How important is that kind of support, and how important is it to have someone who knows what you're going through around?
Andrea Gunning: I feel like those are almost two separate questions. I think that one, you know, we hear in Episode 8 that when you're dealing with betrayal trauma, it's like you're realizing that all of the rules that you thought you were following were never being followed, and so you have a hard time trusting and understanding the sense of the world. So if you have a community around you, family, friends, that can be this stability to allow you to realize like, okay, I am on solid ground. I can trust, I can learn to reorient myself in my, in my life, that's essential. And, and people who can kind of validate your lived experience is essential.
Karoline going through what she went through, you can't expect anyone to truly know all the emotions that you're feeling, everything that you're dealing with, unless you've been through it yourself. And so there are things, you know, when I went out to Colorado Springs to hang out with Karoline and Suzanne, Karoline shared like, she would vent to people about what was going on and there are people that, with all the best intentions, just would say certain things that, you know, you just, they would kind of step in it. And there's just certain things that you ask or you say, or you respond in a different way, if you've been through a situation where you've experienced betrayal trauma. And so the fact that Karoline has that knowledge because of what she's been through and can kind of give that support to Suzanne, it's a blessing under really bad circumstances.
Kaitlin Goldin: Yeah, absolutely. And I, I think also for Karoline, having someone else now that, as Karoline says, didn't get that typical divorce, doesn't have that kind of a privilege.
Andrea Gunning: Mm-hmm.
Kaitlin Goldin: I think it's huge for her. And I'm so glad that, you know, in the midst of everything she's going through that Suzanne also has Karoline as a resource now. And I think that that'll be important as both of them are continuing healing.
Andrea Gunning: Yep.
Kaitlin Goldin: So let's talk about that afternoon that you were able to spend with, um, Karoline and Suzanne. What was that like, being with the two of them together?
Andrea Gunning: It was really special. I remember talking to Carrie, our producer, and saying like, I'm not ready to say goodbye. Like, when we left Boston, 'cause the last time we had seen Karoline in person, we were, Carrie and I were in Boston, and I remember leaving and being like, I just am not ready to say goodbye or not know when I'm gonna see Karoline again and, being able to go back out and see how she's changed, she's done a lot of work with Kristen Snowden and she's obviously feeling a lot of empowerment now that the show is out.
Kaitlin Goldin: Mm.
Andrea Gunning: It was really cool to see her transform in a way, and she is just kind of glowing, and I love her girlfriend Suzanne, she's a hoot. And so we, when we recorded with her originally, it was remote, like she wasn't there when we were out in Colorado Springs last time. So to get one-on-one time with someone that you've interviewed was really cool. And then just to see their relationship, like they're so close and it's very clear that it's a deep and beautiful friendship.
And just to kind of witness that and see how they're relying on each other. I mean, Karoline's rightfully really angry about what Suzanne's going through, because I think Karoline's like, you guys saw the destruction of my life. Why would you put your significant other through that, if you've seen the destruction, wouldn't you change course?
And so she's obviously going through that, but we've been working together for so long now, like I actually feel like the relationship's much deeper and the reporting obviously becomes much deeper. And so it was just a really fulfilling trip and it was really great quality time.
Kaitlin Goldin: Yeah. And what about the trip to Boston? I mean, what was that like being there for Karoline's son and with Karoline and Nicole as Karoline's son crossed the finish line? I mean, that's such an amazing moment.
Andrea Gunning: You know, like, this, Boston also felt like a full circle moment because her son had run the Boston Marathon before, but he had ran it days after Joel had blown up their life. And so, I don't even know how he got through his days, let alone run 23 miles. But this was the last time, or one of the last times he was gonna be doing it, and I had never met her daughter in person. So to see them all together, like, you can understand that this, this family is closed, this family is really special.
They remind me a lot of Stacey's family. They're just really good friends and they're really, really tight. And to see the lengths that Karoline goes to to show up to be a good mom is unbelievable. You know? I've run a few different half marathons, not a full marathon. My parents haven't been to any of those. She goes above and beyond to support her kids, and that was on full display that weekend. And you could just tell that they just love being with each other, which was really cool. Like, you know it in theory when you interview somebody, but to see it is a whole different element.
Kaitlin Goldin: Yeah. How do you think you've changed? How has this season changed your perspective on the world?
Andrea Gunning: I think my perspectives on the police department has changed a lot, which really sucks. I learned a lot about the value in your word, like we need to hold people to a certain standard when it comes to their word on things, and it's like, so much more than just an affair. It's just like, are you a truthful person and what does that mean as an individual? What does that mean as you participate in an institution or within a structure, like, has meaning and has impact that's important, and it's important to be reminded of that.
Unfortunately for me, we deal with betrayal every day, all day long. So like, his magnitude of his betrayal is shocking and it's really upsetting. But you know, I hear about them all the time. For me, what was really hard was when someone takes your reputation and they change who you are fundamentally and communicate that identity and what you've created to other people.
So you're navigating the world and interacting with people, and they're meeting you under a completely different pretense, like a understanding of a completely different identity than who you truly are. That's what Karoline is really faced with. That was one element of the story that I never predicted, and was very apparent when we went to Colorado Springs. We're like, oh, wow. It was coming out in interviews with people at the Colorado Springs Police Department, how Joel had created this identity for Karoline internally. And like, who she was, and with the people he was having affairs with, and why he was having those affairs. And so people at Colorado Springs would say, well, she's a bitch or she doesn't do this and like, he created this person that didn't exist and now she's trying to collect parts of who that person was, he was portraying her to be, and like, be at peace with this narrative that's out there about her.
And so it never dawned on me that like someone can do that, and how destructive that could be to your self-confidence in your own lived experience and your own identity. I haven't taken that thought and actually voiced it out loud so that I hope that made sense, but that was the biggest thing that I was like, wow. I've never really thought about that as part of the betrayal experience. That was new to me.
Kaitlin Goldin: Yeah, absolutely. We've seen that a lot of people have written in, resonating with those feelings and yeah, I wonder what it's been like for you to see all of these emails and to get to share those emails with Karoline, that people actually understand what she's been through when for so long she's been denied that connection and community and understanding.
Andrea Gunning: I think the identity that he created for Karoline, when everything blew up, it kind of watered down her destruction. Like he had kind of buffered it. Like, if this comes out, here are the reasons why Joel did this and it's understandable. So he kind of protected himself from the blast. And she got no protection. And I think when she sees people relate, she's now realizing that blast, that impact, she can have that impact on other people in a positive way. Like it's not all for nothing.
Kaitlin Goldin: Mm.
Andrea Gunning: When I think a lot of people who go through this, you're just like, I'm just going through this 'cause I have to go through it because it's my life and it's happening to me.
Kaitlin Goldin: Yeah.
Andrea Gunning: And she's making it happen for her, and she's making it happen for other people in their healing journey, which I think is really empowering.
Kaitlin Goldin: Okay, great. So what are you looking forward to listeners hearing in the last episode of the season?
Andrea Gunning: One of my favorite things about ending Karoline's story, which we basically like, closed the chapter on that in Episode 9, is that knowing that, even though things are hard and there are gonna be hard moments, everything's going to be all right. And so, as we looked at the final episode, that episode is really kind of its own standalone piece, and our producer Mo interviewed basically the godmother of betrayal trauma. She coined the term, her name is Dr. Freyd, and Mo sits down with her and talks about her work, and particularly betrayal blindness.
And I think we felt like it was important to end this season on that interview, because I think a lot of comments and questions and big curiosities that we encountered over the course of Karoline's season are because of betrayal blindness. And I think to really end the season with us educating the audience on Dr. Freyd's work when it comes to betrayal blindness, and institutional betrayal, two themes that are really important to Karoline's story, I think is the way that we need to end this season. So even though we've kind of wrapped up Karoline's story by 409, this whole piece in 410 is really, um, to underscore the themes of the season.
Take good care,
Andrea
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