Welcome back to the world of Betrayal. This season, we’re eager to bring you the story of Karoline — a woman who thought she’d married a hero, only to discover that the man behind the police badge was hiding devastating secrets.
Episode 1 just dropped yesterday (plus Episode 2, exclusively on iHeartTrueCrime+) — and if you haven’t listened already, head on over to Apple Podcasts, the iHeartApp, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also listen right here, on Beyond Betrayal!
We also have a special behind-the-scenes interview today for after you listen, where I talk to producer Carrie Hartman about the making of this season and the first episode. If you’ve listened to Karoline’s story so far, you’ll learn more about the love story that started it all, our trip to Colorado Springs, and what makes this season so unique.
Every Friday, we’ll be checking in with more conversations, bonus material, and insights from experts and our producers — so be sure to join us after each episode drops on Thursdays.
On today’s Behind Betrayal about Episode 1: One of the Good Ones, I talk with Carrie about how important it is for our team to build trust with someone who’s been betrayed — and why all those small details from the first episode will be key to understanding what really happened to this family. You can also find the transcript below.
Andrea Gunning: Okay, I'm here today with my beloved producer, Carrie Hartman. We've been working on Betrayal, the limited run together for, I wanna say four years at this point.
Carrie Hartman: I think it's longer 'cause we started in 2019.
Andrea Gunning: Right. So it's, we've been developing it for five years.
Carrie Hartman: Yeah. Yeah. When we didn't even know what it was gonna turn into.
Andrea Gunning: I know and I remember throughout the whole process of doing season one and constantly asking like, is this anything? You know, what are we doing? But you were constantly my, my guidepost of trying, you know, we were really figuring it out together.
Carrie Hartman: Yeah, yeah.
Andrea Gunning: Is what we were doing. I wanted to sit and talk to you today about season four 'cause today we launched the first episode of the fourth season. Tell me a little bit about what you're going to hear in episode one and the foundation of episode one, because this is, I think, one of our trickier episodes to produce.
Carrie Hartman: It's hard when you're setting up a podcast and you wanna give people enough to know that there's a really interesting story, but you don't wanna give everything away in the first episode.
Andrea Gunning: Yeah.
Carrie Hartman: So that can be tricky. We wanted to first off establish that again, kind of like in season one, we're dealing with, um, a family, with a parent, in this case, the father who's well liked, well regarded, seems like a great guy on the outside, is a public servant, is serving the community. And to get a very broad picture of how this family was viewed, and how they viewed themselves in their community in Colorado Springs. So, um, and I should mention here that we've done a lot of road trips together. I usually give you the big room. I just wanna go on record with that.
Andrea Gunning: She does, she does always give me my own. She usually gives me the, the main bathroom and the main bedroom. Although the joke was on me this season because my bedroom was above the garage, which ended up being freezing. So. We were in Colorado Springs, it was like negative 10.
Carrie Hartman: That's true.
Andrea Gunning: So joke was on me.
Carrie Hartman: I was like, no, you take the master. And then you were like freezing your ass off the entire week we were out there. It's kind of funny. But you know, part of getting to know a family is almost like embedding ourselves in their life and their routine, and, who are their friends? What do they do for a living? Because betrayal is about trust and broken trust. That's really at the root of, of all of our stories, and we need to form a really trustful relationship with the people we're covering.
So episode one is a result of us really spending time and getting to know Karoline Borega and her children and her friends. And the other thing I would say is episode one really tells us what it's like to be a family member of a first responder. So I, I mean, I don't, I'm not close to any first responders. I don't know police officers or firefighters personally well, but I really didn't understand the kind of sacrifices the rest of the family has to make in order for a person to have that job and grow and be promoted, and become, you know, an administrator or whatever. There are sacrifices going on everywhere.
Andrea Gunning: So just to go back, season four is the story of the Kern family.
Carrie Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Andrea Gunning: The family's from Colorado Springs, Colorado. Dad is a police officer. His name is Joel Kern. Karoline, who is the main subject of season four, she also works in law enforcement.
Carrie Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Andrea Gunning: And they have two really successful kids. And so the episode really centers around this nuclear family. And what's hard about an episode one in the beginning of a limited run season is you're really establishing the characters. And so in episode one, we're learning about who Karoline is, who her husband Joel is, who her kids are, who their network of close family and friends are, and why does the audience care about them? Because ultimately, at the end of the episode, you're going to hear this moment where their life is seemingly falling apart.
And you have to provide all of this context. There's so many details about Karoline's story that are really important because they're going to come back.
Carrie Hartman: Right.
Andrea Gunning: In future episodes.
Carrie Hartman: Right, that's right.
Andrea Gunning: And be very relevant. You know, one of the questions that we have to ask is, you know, is the audience going to care about this little detail of Karoline's life, like you and I care, Carrie. 'Cause we care about Karoline, we care about her story, we care about her life.
Carrie Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Andrea Gunning: But do the audience, who don't know her yet, will they push through and care enough about these little details that are going to come back in a really important way. So that's really the foundation of us producing that first episode, is really understanding who these characters are and making the audience fall in love with Karoline and fall in love with her love story with Joel.
Carrie Hartman: Yep.
Andrea Gunning: And so, just so that we understand the gravity of what she's about to lose, and the reality that she's been living is a complete lie. So much about this season, you know, season one we did Jen, her husband was a teacher and was sexually assaulting a student.
Carrie Hartman: Right.
Andrea Gunning: And it was really unpacking and Jen's journey of learning, you know, the different masks her husband would wear around different people. Season two was about Ashley Lytton and how her husband was taking images of his stepdaughter and also consuming child sexual abuse material. Season three was Stacey Rutherford and Tyler, her son Tyler, and about her husband who was a doctor, a well-respected doctor in their town, and how he was abusing her son, his stepson, Tyler.
And this season is really kind of back to the basics of understanding infidelity, and what it is like to feel like you've been living a lie.
Carrie Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Andrea Gunning: And when you find out a revelation that makes you go back and relive 20 years and realize, my understanding of what was happening in my reality is very different than what was going on behind my back.
Carrie Hartman: Mm-hmm.
Andrea Gunning: So that's so much about what we are trying to set the foundation for in episode one.
Carrie Hartman: There's a few moments that really stuck out to me, I don't know about you, but, um, the, the meeting story about like the electric energy between the two of them, I thought, I know what that is. When like you have, like it's chemistry, it's that like, indefinable thing, chemistry, and the chemistry that they had when they looked at each other, and the spark. You can feel, you can feel it. And when Karoline talked about it, you can hear in her voice, that memory is still really visceral for her. Seeing Joel for the first time.
Andrea Gunning: You know what that memory reminds me of though, Carrie? I've had that feeling once in my life where it's like this magnetic moment. And it's only ever been with a relationship that I actually talk about in a letter to the audience on our Substack, which was, ended up being the one that was the most destructive with the person that ended up betraying me.
Carrie Hartman: Yes.
Andrea Gunning: And it was, and I just, I, when she said that, I was like, I know that feeling.
Carrie Hartman: Me too.
Andrea Gunning: And it was with a person very similar to Joel.
Carrie Hartman: Yeah. It's something like, something else takes over your body because you're just reacting to this chemistry, you know? Her mom's like, you know, don't, this better not be a cop. You know? Which is so interesting, like, what did her mom know? Her mom knew something, it better not be a cop, but the, that, that chemistry, that desire, I, I think it's usually not with the right person. Um, because real, and I'm gonna say real relationships, but it's, it, it's not a sustaining foundation for a relationship.
So there's gotta be a lot of other ways that you connect. That you can hear was, it was life changing for her, meeting him was life changing for her.
Andrea Gunning: Yeah. Why was this story interesting to you?
Carrie Hartman: It's a good question, and there's a couple answers to that. The first one is, you know, we have certain expectations of our police officers, our clergy, our teachers, they have more power than most of us, and we expect more of them. And one of the things that Betrayal has revealed is, in some cases, that is not the case, like these, these are people who have the same fallacies, break the same rules, and in the case of a police officer, they're taking an oath. Like the same way that last season, Justin, who's a physician, took an oath.
Andrea Gunning: Right.
Carrie Hartman: And there's something a little bit worse about someone who is given a badge and a gun and power when they abuse that power. I'd also like to mention that there are adult children who are participating in this podcast, Karoline's son and daughter. And they lived through a trauma, but also have been able to process that trauma. And getting their insight into their parents' marriage and what happened in their household is really special.
So those were the two things that made this different for me. Of course, Karoline herself is a super compelling figure. She is a woman who had no choice but to cope. She had no options but to wake up every day. And not everybody could do it.
Andrea Gunning: Yeah, I mean, that's the case for every subject that we cover, right? Karoline is extremely stoic. She is extremely strong and she has a really intense exterior, but when you, she lets you in, you're kind of exposed to this incredible beauty of a human being.
Carrie Hartman: It's a little mushier one, right? Yeah.
Andrea Gunning: And she's just so amazing and such a great mom, and has such an incredible relationship with her kids.
Carrie Hartman: Such a great mom.
Andrea Gunning: Just the way that she's there for them. That I agree, is a really, been a really special thing to cover is that relationship dynamic and watching her be there for her kids.
Carrie Hartman: What did you think about Colorado Springs when we went out there?
Andrea Gunning: I had been to Colorado Springs before to cover a story for Burden of Guilt with Nancy, which is another one of our shows that we produce. And I thought it was really neat. But there's something about these mountain towns. We keep going back to these mountain...
Carrie Hartman: Yeah.
Andrea Gunning: Town, communities.
Carrie Hartman: Yeah.
Andrea Gunning: Obviously we were in, uh, Utah, Riverton. And...
Carrie Hartman: West Virginia was like that too, right? It was-
Andrea Gunning: Mm-hmm.
Carrie Hartman: We were driving up and down huge mountains to, to visit with-
Andrea Gunning: Blue Ridge Mountains.
Carrie Hartman: Yeah. Yeah.
Andrea Gunning: And, you know, it isn't until we go out there that you start to uncover the different layers that you'd never thought that you were going to, that you didn't foresee or understand or know what was happening. And this isn't, so this is something that the audience will come to find out, but, what was really eye-opening was, it's a big city. I mean it's, you know, Denver-
Carrie Hartman: It is.
Andrea Gunning: Denver's really large, it's about like an hour and you know, 20 minutes from Denver.
Carrie Hartman: Yeah.
Andrea Gunning: But it feels like a small town. It feels like a small town community. And kind of gives you a vibe that, you know, everybody knows everybody and everybody knows each other's business. But it's beautiful. It is absolutely astonishing. It's breathtaking. But when we went out there, it was absolutely frigid. And I would say that's probably how the people of Colorado Springs have treated Karoline.
Carrie Hartman: I think that's a great place to, uh, to, to, to leave for episode one. Two quick things, wanna shout out to Colorado Springs coffee, drive-thru coffee huts.
Andrea Gunning: Yes. Dutch Brothers!
Carrie Hartman: Which we don't have here on the East Coast. And you're in the South. So the East Coast and the South. And also, I'm sorry to, to, to get off the subject of episode one, but what are you wearing on your hand because, um, it's blinding me. I know, but maybe you could tell everybody else.
Andrea Gunning: Yeah, it's my engagement ring. I got engaged a few weeks ago. And now I'm in Louisiana with my fiance for his job.
Carrie Hartman: Is it weird to like, getting married when you, when you are the voice and producer of a show like Betrayal?
Andrea Gunning: It's weird. I think I texted Karoline. What did I text Karoline? I texted Karoline something. She congratulated me and I said, thank you. We're so excited, though, poor man. I was like, are you sure about this? Our prenup is going to be insane. Because of everything we've been, we've witnessed on working on this show.
Carrie Hartman: Right. You know too much, right?
Andrea Gunning: Yep, I know too much. And it has nothing to do with financials, really. It has everything to do with...
Carrie Hartman: Right.
Andrea Gunning: Protecting against the family and criminal law system really.
Carrie Hartman: I think you, you vetted your fiance pretty well, but you know, after working on four seasons of the limited series of Betrayal and the, the weekly series of Betrayal, I could understand, like, wanting to have a, a few things agreed to ahead of time, so.
Andrea Gunning: Yeah. For sure.
Carrie Hartman: I didn't mean to get off topic, but. Episode one, we're really proud of it and, um, and more to come. A lot more to come.
Take good care,
Andrea
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